Free Will (Redux)
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Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:17 pm
I am convinced that the arguments over the existence or non existence of free will also fail the justified true belief test. At an intuitive level I feel that free will does exist: otherwise we would have a complete alibi for every bad thing we ever did.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:06 am
Other creature demonstrate varying degrees of an ability that suggests free will: from octopi to chimpanzees. Did your God bestow it upon them as well?
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:27 pm
So when God created Adam and Eve did he put 4% Neanderthal DNA in their genomes, or was it later generations who gave us all that trait?
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:01 pm
I am always willing to be sidetracked to examine interesting topics. I was pondering on how far the notion (that all we are is god given) would go. It quickly ran into a brick wall.
Back on track. It seems to the agnostic that only a very bizarre god would give humans free will and then cast them into eternal torture for using it in a way that he did not like. Particularly if his acute foresight tells him the final outcome from the very moment of birth.
Back on track. It seems to the agnostic that only a very bizarre god would give humans free will and then cast them into eternal torture for using it in a way that he did not like. Particularly if his acute foresight tells him the final outcome from the very moment of birth.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:29 pm
So there goes Pascal's wager then. A full description of the wager And I think you just confirmed my speculation, we are given free will and are eternally cursed if we use it in the wrong way.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:41 pm
You observed that everything in our genome is there because god put it there, and that he wants true love not pretend love. I question his motive for putting Neanderthal DNA in our genome, and observe that Pascal seems to be quite happy with pretend love. Your position is not yet fully clear.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:17 pm
You said we have free will because all our traits are god given. If that is so, God also decided we should have Neanderthal DNA in our genomes: which seems to be a quite bizarre decision. A simpler, and more satisfactory explanation is that our traits are the result of natural events, not supernatural ones.
The added claim that we were given free will because god wants our unfettered love. In that most unlikely scenario, Pascal's wager is booted into touch permanently. And being so booted is no bad thing.
The added claim that we were given free will because god wants our unfettered love. In that most unlikely scenario, Pascal's wager is booted into touch permanently. And being so booted is no bad thing.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:48 pm
I did not make the claim that our traits are god given. I used the Neanderthal DNA to show that he did not give us all our traits.
Pascal's third claim, a bit simplified, is that we should choose to believe in god because such a belief has a huge payout in the afterlife, if there is one. Since your god does not accept artificial beliefs, it would seem to me that Pascal's wager fails the acid test of being a "true" belief.
Pascal's third claim, a bit simplified, is that we should choose to believe in god because such a belief has a huge payout in the afterlife, if there is one. Since your god does not accept artificial beliefs, it would seem to me that Pascal's wager fails the acid test of being a "true" belief.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:31 am
Choosing a belief is a trick I have yet to see be done successfully. Evidence is hard to ignore when there is evidence present to support one side of an argument. And I thought it was common ground that worshiping a god you did not believe in would not satisfy that god's condition that belief should be a true one.
I am pleased to see that we humans did not have Neanderthal DNA added to our genome as some really hard to fathom jest: one as huge as Satan burying fossils to confound and dismay the true believer.
I am pleased to see that we humans did not have Neanderthal DNA added to our genome as some really hard to fathom jest: one as huge as Satan burying fossils to confound and dismay the true believer.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:13 pm
I do not believe that Satan exists but have no compelling case that he does not. Like all other supernatural creatures, the burden is on those who make a claim on existence or non-existence to provide a compelling case for their position.
I merely repeated an idle speculation, by others, that fossils are good evidence for evolutionary trends and it is said their existence needed a different explanation. The notion that some evangelicals blame Satan for a cunning ruse is so wide spread that in one of his books,Terry Pratchett had a demon of darkness apologize for doing the burying.
I merely repeated an idle speculation, by others, that fossils are good evidence for evolutionary trends and it is said their existence needed a different explanation. The notion that some evangelicals blame Satan for a cunning ruse is so wide spread that in one of his books,Terry Pratchett had a demon of darkness apologize for doing the burying.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:52 pm
Terry Pratchett was a brilliant author of humorous books and he often took popular memes and used them for comedic effect. He treated the idea that fossils had been buried as a demonic ploy as the butt for one of his jokes.
I think, but it is only a personal opinion, that he thought Satan was another man made invention created to keep the faithful under control lest they pondered straying from the fold.
I think, but it is only a personal opinion, that he thought Satan was another man made invention created to keep the faithful under control lest they pondered straying from the fold.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:41 pm
The vice is versa in this case: the comedic writing arose after the "Satan Did It" meme became widespread. Perhaps it was not evangelicals who started it but others with similar outlandish ideas.
But it does seem to me that morality was a man made invention, invented to control human behavior. That makes more sense than Yahweh inventing it to give him an alibi for torturing souls for all eternity.
But it does seem to me that morality was a man made invention, invented to control human behavior. That makes more sense than Yahweh inventing it to give him an alibi for torturing souls for all eternity.
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Re: Free Will (Redux)
by Bill Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:44 pm
You still seem to harbor the illusion that obeying god is simply a matter of choice. Hellfire is one way of trying to silence critics, but is more like a tactic that a Putin would use rather than an all-loving all-forgiving supernatural manifestation.
And apart from the ten commandments, your deity seems rather quiet on what constitutes good morality.
And apart from the ten commandments, your deity seems rather quiet on what constitutes good morality.
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